Teatr Pieśń Kozla (Song of the Goat Theatre) - interview with Grzegorz Bral
Founder and Artistic Director, Teatr Pieśń Kozla (Song of the Goat) from PolandTeatr Pieśń Kozla performed Chronicles – A Lamentation for the aurora nova festival at St Stephens, as part of the 2004 Edinburgh Festival Fringe. Artistic Director Grzegorz Bral kindly took some time out from his busy schedule to talk to Melissa Naylor, Visiting Arts, about Teatr Pieśń Kozla and performing at the Fringe. The interview took place on 19 August 2004.
Melissa Naylor - How did the name of the company come about?
Grzegorz Bral - It’s the root word for the word tragedy; song of the goat in ancient Greek is ‘tragon ode’When you travel outside of Poland, how do people react to the name, do people comment on it?
Sometimes … we don’t really have problems with the name. It’s a strange name for many people, but when we say what it means, for many people it makes complete sense, so maybe more people are just shy to ask what it is about. Generally we try to stick to the Polish name but this time Wolfgang [Hoffman], who is the boss of aurora nova, persuaded me to keep it in English, because he said that this is such a good sounding name. But generally we travel with the Polish name.Where else has this show toured?
Yes, this year was interesting because we were in Taiwan and New York. Completely different. In New York we had very successful performances and as a result we are going back next year to perform at three, maybe four, cities. America is quite difficult and as Ellen Stewart, the boss of the La Mama, New York said, once you get a seal of approval from America you are a world artist; not a European artist, not a Polish artist, but a world artist. It’s strange but really the American seal of approval is really very important for art. Such as the Edinburgh festival is important to be internationally recognised. But you know America is different because they are ruling the world just now.
How did you come to be here in Edinburgh?
Our company has been chased for the past three years by Wolfgang (the venues Director). He wanted us but we couldn’t afford it. Basically because of financial reasons we couldn’t come. Because on the Fringe you are covering everything: entrance fee, your accommodation, your per diems, and the company is not small, there are 10 people here, so it is hundreds of pounds every week just being here. So I have been coming here every year for the last three years, just for a day or so, to see how it works here.Last year Wolfgang said ‘guys you must try and come next year and I’ll try and put forward an application to an organisation in England and maybe they can sponsor us a little bit. If they find this, can you come?’ It became immediately easier, because with this entrance fee, I couldn’t think how we could find £4,000 or £5,000 just to start our preparations, but it really became possible that we could come here. This was only possible through the money we got, without wanting to compliment you or anything! To us it was the vital seed money to start thinking, without it we wouldn’t have been able to come. Just being able to be here, being able to perform here, we have had already I don’t know how many offers to perform all over the world. I know already after three weeks that this experience has changed our existence as a company.
Even though you’ve performed in other places around the world, does it still makes a big difference performing here in Edinburgh?
We have worked in different places and we have our own simple recognition in some places but we have never been able to come to Edinburgh, because for us it was always kind of like the most important festival in Europe. Avignon is not that strong, and Edinburgh has been going already for half a century. There is also the possibility of prizes here. I don’t know if we will get it, but the prizes here are like the Oscars. It really changes a lot. (Ed. The day after this interview it was announced that Teatr Pieśń Kozla had been awarded a Fringe First for Chronicles – A Lamentation)You said that you have been visiting the UK for the last few years?
Yes, I have a strong relationship with Great Britain. I’ve been having an ongoing relationship with Manchester Metropolitan University. From this year, we are starting to run an MA course. We’ve got students. It took us four years; actually it took the university four years to go through the process of validation. So it’s done. So that puts us on a completely different shelf in the theatre world, because this is the first European company which has an MA course of its own technique.Our place is really the most beautiful place because we are working in a fourteenth century monastery. So they saw the show, they talked/interviewed us for few days and they were convinced. So we started telling people about it, particularly through the workshops that we run through the year. We now have 12 students enrolled and the minimum was eight. So we begin half way through September, 2 weeks in Manchester and then the students go to Poland.
Yes, I had a quick look on the website about it, and it did sound quite extraordinary, and the fact that it is a British university but they are sending students to Poland. I don’t know about drama courses in the UK, but I’ve never heard of that before…
Yes, it’s very unusual for a British university to decide to run their studies outside the UK, in an East European country, but they still get recognised as Manchester students. So for us it’s a big thing and a big step.So we are aiming for the students who can take this experience and become something more than the theatre people, so then they start inspiring young people who can then link and interconnect, interchange the different places in the world. Of course many of the people will just become actors, but with the experience we are offering them they may become something else additionally, we call this job in Poland the theatre animateur.
Yes, it‘s a word we don’t really have here. It is used, but usually to refer to what happens in other countries
It’s not to be a producer or manager, you are an artist yourself, but you are not just an actor, you are animating an event. This is what we are trying to inspire people with. So like my company is very much like an animateur also, because we run small events and workshops but we are not producers. Many people are very interested in this, like self-cultivating, like art cultivating. Because I think there’s too much institutionalised and you can’t really cultivate art, in an institution you have to cultivate obligations. I also hope that many of the students from this course will later become a company itself. So maybe not all the group, not all twelve, but maybe 2, 3, or 4 will establish their own places and companies.You say money was the main barrier to coming to the Edinburgh Festival Fringe, but were there other issues or was everything else OK?
No, I was very much afraid of the Fringe structures, you know one company followed by the next, the quick turnarounds/changes. It took us nearly a year to negotiate with Wolfgang the conditions which were the minimum requirements for us, for art and for our way of working to somehow survive this machine… this marketing machine.Wolfgang Hoffman and Jo Duffy, the manager, did everything they possibly could so that we felt comfortable and quite relaxed. So generally, what changed my attitude to this place was their attitude towards us and other companies, you know they value us so much, they give support to every one of the companies. They also do fantastic PR for the venue. They were really, really working for us.
You know with venues in Edinburgh it is also a business, for everyone, so it is better if everyone that we are all linking our forces and working together. This particular venue is very much orientated to joining together each group’s individual strength. So actually I was really scared because I need very many hours to prepare, I need concentration, the actors need to warm up, we need isolation, for it to become quieter. It’s not like a normal theatre where actors turn up five minutes before and start to warm up during the performance.
Did you have to change the show technically at all to fit in with the venue’s schedule?
No, nothing. That was great. The only problem which we had and still have is that we needed to have complete black-out. Because of the fire regulations here, you have to have fire exit signs lit; it actually gives so much light. In our space in Poland we don’t bother with this, it’s complete darkness. So I just compromised, there is nothing you can do.I think you have already said quite a bit about what you are getting from being here in Edinburgh. Edinburgh is a showcase for you...
I can tell you what we are getting there are two aspects of our work.One is the aspect that you can measure, and the other aspect is something which you will never be able to measure because it is artistic, the ritual aspect, and the audience aspect. So first, the measurable ones: the reviews, we have had really good ones here, to me they are just great. Reviews have already been sent to Poland to build our foundation in Poland. But also I hope that the reviews will help us to be more recognised internationally. People love quoting the Scotsman, the Guardian etc. Secondly possible invitations and projects; I can’t tell you exactly how many of these we have had, but about 6 or 7 invitations are already waiting for us, it is up to us whether we use them or not. It is very satisfying that we are getting these.
Another element which is very important is that one, maybe two places are maybe interested in hosting a festival which is dedicated to a particular town. There is an organisation from Italy that has been holding a festival over the past 10 years which every year is dedicated to a different town, but previously they have hosted towns like Moscow, St Petersburg, London, Paris, New York, Sao Paolo and after they have seen our show they wanted Wroclaw and I’m very happy with this, because this means that through one simple financial support I can take a huge representation from Poland to promote this in other countries. Italy has such a rich cultural history such as opera, comedia del arte etc and architecture, painting. So we can bring some benefit back. Our company, we have a few invitations to go outside Poland.... but something that through us we can propose to other people. When I get back to Wroclaw I will say to the Mayor or the Director of the City Council, look we can take a really good city representation because they want to organise a festival for us. So if this happens just through our work then I am very proud that this can serve other companies. This is a wonderful, wonderful idea. It is like another measurable outcome. I have also heard rumours that maybe we will be awarded a Fringe First. This is also a measurable... in Europe this is like a theatre Oscar, especially Fringe, it is not money. There is no equivalent festival with prizes, there are prizes but really only the Edinburgh prizes are counting. (Ed. The day after this interview it was announced that Teatr Pieśń Kozla had been awarded a Fringe First for Chronicles – A Lamentation)
Another one is that we will probably because of this festival, have a second year of students for our MA Course. Already after the first performances here, people started to send enquiries to the MA Office. But to me all those immeasurable benefits are much more; however they are difficult to talk about. Like, how many people are touched? How many people are really inspired? How many people are more open to Poland, to Wroclaw? How many people would like to come and see more? How many people cried because they remembered something? For how many people did theatre become, once again, a healing process? Usually in art we use only this left hand - measurable, but the immeasurable is extremely important and I try never to forget that this is real essence of our work.
Is there anything in particular about the Edinburgh context which affects those immeasurable aspects?
I can’t really speak too much about Edinburgh because I haven’t seen too much. But I can speak about this venue. I think that this place is really a collection of artists. Of course everyone comes for their own purposes, but eventually everybody is becoming like one, so we are sharing. To me it’s a fantastic experience, teaching me lots of things. I realise that people are forced here to really be very flexible and open, this is like a linked project, everything here is like a linked project, and that really teaches people how to be together, so I see it as great value. It’s very new to me, it’s very new to me because I’m used to having my own space, making my own decisions, being selfish. Here you really need to co-operate. I don’t necessarily think that it is very healthy for art. I hear that many venues are really struggling, having real problems with this in/out, in/out, no preparation but I can’t complain here in the aurora nova venue.
So are any of the invitations you’ve received to perform in the UK?
Yes, we’ve been booked already to perform at the Barbican, May next year and also to open the new theatre in Newcastle (Northern Stage). The Barbican had heard about us in Bogotá six months ago and they had started discussions, but they wanted to see the show. So they saw it here and now they definitely want to programme our show. I’m going to have a look at the venue on Monday to see if it’s OK.In terms of the practicalities, has it made any difference now that Poland is part of the EU?
Well, yeah, you know no-one is asking me stupid questions when I’m at the border. I’ve been through this for more than 10 years, and it was really, well, humiliating to be asked, not always but many times. So that is over, which is very nice. Otherwise, yes it changed a lot. Economically for good but I’m not sure about the spiritual aspect of the whole life of Poland, how much, this will be affected, and I assume it will be a lot. And this is where I am afraid; I don’t think it can be in a very positive way, because to me money always tends to destroy the spiritual aspects of the community. But on the other hand there will be more and more projects possible. When I think about the EU I always knew the economical aspect would be improved, but the identity would be endangered. That worries me and scares me even. I’m trying to work and encourage my colleagues and friends to keep our identity, keep the way that we’re working. The power of the consumerist will be much stronger in Poland, now more than ever. The first generation is always overwhelmed by thoughts of “oh so we can have more this, more this, and more this” and that destroys identity.Do you notice any difference in how people approach you? I mean in terms of wanting to book you for work, is there any difference now you are in the EU?
No, this hasn’t changed but I would have thought that on the artistic aspect we were more attractive before. So it’s like before we were a forbidden fruit.So it’s like you’ve lost a selling point?
A bit, yes.ENDS
The Piesn Kozla Theatre has been hailed as the most exciting and innovative of the new Avant-garde theatre movement in Poland. Its latest performance Chronicles – a lamentation won the Best International Show Edinburgh 2004, the Scotsman Fringe First, the Herald Angel at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe 2004 (August 2004), the Grand Prix at Poland’s prestigious Festival of Acting in Kalisz (May 2003), was invited to LaMaMa Theatre (April 2004), and was part of the program commemorating of Odin Teatret’s 40th Anniversary.
The Pieśń Kozła Company continues the long tradition of Polish ensemble theatre work and, through its dedication to ongoing research in the actors craft and its vocal and movement techniques has created a unique performance style. Since 2005 the company runs their annual Brave Festival: against Cultural Exile, presenting art of vanishing cultures and traditions from all over the world.
Piesn Kozla is an independent self-supported theatre company, collaborating with and receiving support from the Wroclaw City Council, the Polish National Department of Culture and private sponsorship. Piesn Kozla Theatre collaborates with other artistic groups and pedagogical institutions on both a national and international level.
www.piesnkozla.pl/eng/index_eng.html
All pictures taken from Teatr Piesn Kozla (Song of the Goat Theatre) performance of
Chronicles - A Lamentation
Courtesy: Komedia, Brighton
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